24: What Is Justice?
Posted on | July 25, 2009 | 13 Comments
When I was seeking topics for the first half of this very blogathon, Sarah — who blogs over at the SAFER blog, the blog of the organization that I’m sponsoring! — posed an interesting question in the comments:
something i personally have been thinking a lot about—that i would love to read some of your comments on—is dealing with assault incidents outside of the justice system. the struggle between holding perpetrators accountable, getting justice for survivors, and also resisting the racist, misogynist justice system/prison industrial complex is a big struggle for me. what are the alternatives? are there any at this point?
This is, personally, something that I certainly struggle with. As you may have noticed from a few of my posts today, I have big issues with our current “justice system.” I think that as set up, it’s racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, classist . . . the list goes on . . . and largely promotes violence against certain communities, and indeed promotes rape itself within prisons.
And still, I have huge difficulty coming up with alternatives. When I read the alternatives for those organizations out there that look to do justice outside the governmental justice system, I greatly respect and value the work they’re doing. But as a survivor, I always feel like something is missing. And I can’t quite put my finger on what.
The question that I think it boils down to is a rather big one, thus likely the reason for the difficulty. What is justice? We talk about justice a lot, but seem to lack a standard definition for it. (Brownfemipower wrote a post about this recently with regards to the similar and related, but different concept of accountability.) I talk about it a lot, but I don’t have a standard definition for it.
Personally, I’m not sure if there is such a thing as justice with regards to sexual violence. I cannot think of a single thing that my rapist can do for me that would make me feel better about it (except fuck off an die — which I think is a valid emotional response, but not even remotely a practical one), or to have him appropriately “pay” for what he did. But I do know that looking at many of the alternative solutions, I sure as fucking hell do not want my rapist’s money, I do not want his apologies, I’d have to think about it but doubt I would actually want his public proclamation of what he did, don’t feel that people checking in on him is enough, and feel that kicking him out of the community is just shifting the problem.
Me, I’m still angry, I still want revenge. And while actual revenge is wrong, I don’t think the desire is. When we’re seeking justice — whatever that means, and assuming it’s possible — is it right to base it on the survivor’s needs? And if the answer is no, which it very well may be, can we entirely disregard them? I think the answer to that would very definitely be no.
To answer the original question, I don’t know if we do have other options at this point. Organizations, organization like INCITE! are working to develop them, and I commend them for that. But I don’t know what real options would look like, because when it comes to sexual violence, I don’t know what justice looks like. When it comes to sexual violence, I don’t even know what accountability looks like.
So, readers, I toss this jumbled mess of thoughts out to you. When it comes to sexual violence, what does justice look like? What does accountability look like?
Comments
13 Responses to “24: What Is Justice?”
Leave a Reply
July 25th, 2009 @ 8:47 pm
I don’t think justice for rape and sexual violence is any different than justice for murder, or justice for non-sexual assault, etc. So I don’t think we want or need a separate program, but to reform the current one to be safer for survivors of sexual assault.
I think it would be dangerous, even if well intentioned, to make sexual crime some sort of ethereal “other” sort of crime completely separated from murder, manslaughter, non-sexual assault, etc. I think it would cement ideas of sexual crimes being “different” and guarantee that victims of sex crimes will be viewed differently than victims of non-sexual violence.
July 25th, 2009 @ 8:56 pm
No, I agree that we don’t need a separate “program.” I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear. I don’t think there’s such a thing as “justice” for murder, either. I’ve said as much for some time.
July 25th, 2009 @ 9:08 pm
There isn’t justice, at least not perfect justice. The only real justice would be if the crime had not been committed in the first place. Everything else is just approximation.
July 25th, 2009 @ 9:45 pm
I don’t think there are any real answers, not right now.
I do think that you are asking the right questions. And that’s a good start.
July 25th, 2009 @ 11:25 pm
I agree amandaw, justice doesnt exist – the system, our society, patriarchy, misogyny, racism, classism…. these things do not allow there to be justice.
But we can imagine what it will be and work towards it…. but for me, i still cant even imagine what it would look like…
July 26th, 2009 @ 11:33 am
the only justice for me is knowing that rape will never happen again. and I think that the point of the “community accountability” options that groups like INcite! are using is not to met out justice, but to adress the idea that the criminal justice system doesn’t work to end rape. that, in fact, because it is a racist, sexist, etc, system, it actually *creates* rape. Or encourages it or justifies it even. For example, how many times have we heard that ‘justice’ means a particularly violent rapist being raped in jail? Or–there’s those “support groups” where men who rape/abuse are supposed to go to in lieu of going to jail–but the support groups happen in cities that aren’t the abusers cities and poor men can’t go because they don’t have the resources to get hotels etc–and the punishment for rich men not going is often “fines”–which means that they can pay their way out of the criminal “justice” system.
and for me–outside of the personal protection issue (that is, I want to be protected from the man who raped me), I have to wonder–do I want this man going to jail, learning how to rape, learning ways to get *away* with rape–being anesthetized to violence–so that when he gets out (which he will, because god knows, rape never gets more than 10 years or so), he’s a more efficient model of violence?
To me, community justice programs are not so much about metting out personal justice for the rape survivor, but ending rape. because none of the programs that organizations like Incite! *only* deal with the “justice” part of a crime–but also have implemented community programs that confront rape within the community, empowerment programs that teach women they don’t have to just accept rape as a normal part of life, etc.
which is not to say–community accountability programs don’t have their own problems–how do you deal with women raping women, how do you deal with phobias and isms that make it more likely for a community to ‘believe’ one group of people over another, etc?
I mean, basically, we have to question our assumpmtions about the current criminal system–does it *really* work to end rape? does it *really* work to protect survivors? does it *really* work to imprison rapists?
Because the racism, sexism, etc doesn’t just fall on the shoulders of rapists, but on survivors too–how many women have we seen get turned into evil predators BY THE SYSTEM? Who don’t get prosecutions because they are the wrong kind of rape survivor?
i’m rambling now!!! I just woke up, so the kids are all over me, and I need to eat something!!! but these questions always excite me, because I think that they are necessary and the first step towards creating something new–oh, and I can’t recommened andrea smith’s book, conquest, enough–she talks *extensively* about this–and details different communities throughout the world that aren’t just implementing these systems, but are reworking them and addressing new needs, and are actually ending rape in their communities.
ok, off to feed the hordes!!!
July 26th, 2009 @ 12:00 pm
Hey bfp, thanks for stopping by!
This is an excellent point. When I usually think about prison, and when it starts to seem like a viable or even good option for people who commit violence, there are three things that make it seem that way: 1. it means the perpetrator is away from the victim, 2. it’s a form of punishment, and 3. it prevents him from assaulting other women.
Two, of course, is the least relevant and only an emotional response, because punishment doesn’t really do anything except sometimes make you feel a bit better (and sometimes not, depending on who you are), that the person who made you suffer is now also suffering. It doesn’t really do anything to help end rape, it doesn’t do anything to help “heal” you or whatever, and it doesn’t ultimately make anyone safer.
The first, I think, is important. Protecting a survivor from the person who hurt her matters. But I think it also has to be weighed against number three, which is initially the most compelling argument. The problem is that you’re right. In all but the rarest, rarest cases, the perpetrator gets out again. In these discussions, that’s often forgotten. And so preventing him from hurting women for however many years he’s locked away doesn’t ultimately do very much if he’s just going to get out with ways to go about still hurting them, and hurting them worse. In fact, it’s quite potentially compounding the problem.
But of course, I still don’t know what to do with/about any of that. Ha.
And yes, I know that INCITE! does a whole ton of other awesome work outside of the issue of justice and/or accountability, but mentioned them only in that context because it was the subject of the post — and also because I had less than 20 minutes to write it
But thank you for sharing for those who don’t know!
July 26th, 2009 @ 12:08 pm
Shorter Me: I agree that the criminal justice system doesn’t actually work to end rape. And yet, while I wholeheartedly agree that working to end rape is the biggest and most important work of all, I still think that something needs to be done about those instances where violence has already been committed, and I still have no idea whatsoever what it should be.
July 26th, 2009 @ 3:11 pm
I still think that something needs to be done about those instances where violence has already been committed,
but this is the big thing–it’s assuming that something is getting done, right? How many women aren’t pressing charges at all? Or, aren’t even *telling* anybody to begin with? Or–if they are telling somebody, the person doesn’t believe them? Or–if they do go to the police, the police “can’t find” enough compelling evidence?
I think that it’s a dangerous assumption–that one that *something* needs to be done, so for now, it might as well be the criminal system–most of the restoritive justices systems that *I* know about were implemented not out of a sense of “we must protect the rapist from a violent racist system”–but because NOTHING was being done about SURVIVORS–women were being raped with impunity, and nobody gave a shit–or the system was SO racist against the victim, there was nothing that *could* be done–
like, on many indigenous reservations, their criminal system is controlled by the major crimes act–which basically asserts that the tribe can’t prosecute ten “major crimes”–murder, rape, etc etc.–the act of prosecution is legally let to the u.s. government.
but when the u.s. government does not value the lives and bodies of indigenous women (as it has proven over and over again since colonization)–is it *really* going to prosecute rape cases?
In that book conquest–there were *horrible* numbers (which of course, I can’t remember specifically)–but it was something like–3 out of 4 indigenous women have been raped, with 1 out of every 2 thousand cases actually going to trial. or something horrible (PLEASE don’t take my word on those numbers–all I remember was being sick to my stomach when I read them)…
So, restoritive justice is the *ONLY* justice that many indigenous women have–
and it sort of bothers me how restorative justice is always talked about as a way to protect the perpetrator from the court system–because it denies the reality that the criminal system is heavily weighted against the survivor–that it is a huuuuuuuge risk for far too many survivors to come forward–to the point where it’s not just “she’s not going to be believed”–but that she’s physically risking her life to do so, you know?
(oh, and I’m not talking about you in that previous paragraph, cuz I know that you said you only had twenty minutes to write this!!! I’m speaking in general–that I think the whole conversation is framed wrong–it shouldn’t be “can restorative justice punish perpetrators enough?” it should be “does restorative justice 1. end violence against women? and 2. keep women (including the survivor) safe and 3. hold the perpetrator accountable to the person s/he abused AND the community?
I don’t think the current criminal system does ANY of these things. even for the women who DO find justice there. But at the same time–I don’t think at all that we should just explode all jails tomorrow and then count on “good will” of humanity to keep violence to a minimum. I think that it’s going to take a long time to undo the criminal system and the ONLY way that is going to happen, is to build new structures of accountability. And, I think that as those structures are being built, women and other survivors needs to be prioritized, rather than the person who committed the crime….
July 26th, 2009 @ 5:43 pm
Right, well I wasn’t trying to say “I think something needs to be done in the cases of violence that has been committed, so since all we have is the prison system, that should be it.” I was trying to say, “The prison system doesn’t work, but I still think something needs to be done in the cases of violence that has been committed, so what else can we do? What should we be doing? What should we be working for?” Because I really don’t know, and again, I feel like the answers are a lot easier when it comes to prevention and providing moral and social support to survivors than it does with how to respond to violence that has been committed on the end of the perpetrator.
Yes, I love this and definitely agree. Issues of how the court system treats people in its custody, even violent people, are important and shouldn’t be ignored. But I think that survivors are absolutely the ones that we should be centering in these conversations, and I do usually see these conversations framed largely the other way around, and I think that it’s where I often have a lot of difficulty and qualms about them. So thank you for that.
July 27th, 2009 @ 4:01 pm
What is accountability?
I’m reminded of Latoya’s review of Gwen Ifill’s book, here:
http://www.racialicious.com/2009/07/24/the-breakthrough-by-gwen-ifill-racialicious-reads/
Speaking about the new generation of minority leaders and how they want to move toward “accountable leadership,” people who are involved in the communities themselves, not just doing the top-level soundbyte sort of thing.
It’s a huge paradigm shift and the transition, trying to make it from one system to the wholly new one, is overwhelming because it challenges a lot of beliefs at the same time.
I don’t understand it at ALL yet and I’m not sure most people do grasp it, in terms of pretty academic theory. But the work that’s being done under that model is making a huge difference, so the ability to put it into neat bullet points sort of falls away, you know? You just move forward with the new way to see what all it can do, and figure it out later.
Anyway, now I’m sitting here chewing on “accountability,” and what it translates to in real life. Because the kind of accountability that rejects our justice system altogether, to build a new system of *real justice* but we don’t always know the plans for the part of the building we’re responsible for…
I think it’s widely applicable and really hard to get a good grip on, mentally… but I’m thinking pretty hard on it lately.
July 27th, 2009 @ 4:07 pm
When one is being held accountable to one’s community, in a just fashion — what is happening to them? What changes in their lives, what is done to honor the ideal of true accountability?
Currently, we sit them in a court room for awhile and then throw them in prison… then tie a bracelet to their ankle for a few months/years after they get out.
What would we do in a just society? When someone does something that requires a response from the community? What happens to that person, what happens to the victim, what happens to the surrounding community? How does it all change what do they all do?
I have a LOT of reading to do in general, but bfp if you have more recs for books/sites/video/whatever on the topic… it’s something that’s itching inside now, if that makes sense.
As far as radical community organizing I’m starting to get into disability, but that’s a case where usually it’s the system against the person — rather than a person (possibly w/ system behind them) against a person. So there’s no person to address who did smth wrong. In some ways I think that makes redefining “justice” easier. In some ways, harder to make it happen. But it means I struggle when it comes to these issues.
July 28th, 2009 @ 1:52 pm
ok, I’ve been mulling over the idea of justice in the sense that most people look away from prison rapes– and I think it’s this. Everyone knows cases of extreme miscarriage of justice–brutal rapes of children leading to sentences of just a couple years. Or, sentences insanely long. Cara listed several of these on the post about the mentally disabled individual given a 100 year sentence. Therefor, the wider community hopes that the CRIMINALS in the system know each other and happen to shiv/rape the “right” people to undo the insane sentencing.
In other words, I think that attitude comes from a supreme mistrust of the traditional “judge sentences” situation.
Possibly to fix this, we could call in some number of persons from the pool of potential jury members after the conviction and sentencing has been done, these people (maybe 100, maybe 500, etc.) will simply listen to the counts on which the defendant is found guilty and the judge’s sentence, and will vote by secret ballot “too lenient, too harsh, acceptable” to the sentence. If 60% vote too harsh or too lenient, the sentence must be changed and pass a new panel. Judges who have a certain percentage of their sentences rejected would be suspended. That would I think increase confidence in the system and would be a better acountability system than legislative “minimum” or “maximum” sentencing laws. We also wouldn’t get sentences that offend common decency, such as brutal rapists getting off with basically a slap on the wrist while non-violent drug possession gets hit with 50+ year sentences… (oh, yeah, nobody on the panel gets to see anyone in the original courtroom, so racist attitudes would be minimized)
I dunno. It probably has more problems I haven’t thought of and probably is bunk but I do think it would make a community feel more in tune with it’s justice system.